Claiming puzzles you have not solved
I have posted something on the geocaching forum in Ottawa.
In Ottawa there is a group called the Geo Mob. They meet every saturday morning at a local restaurant and go out caching together. Anyone can join them and go out with them. The 3Bears hang out with them.
Sometime ago there was a major controversy involving the group when some area cachers felt that it was not appropriate for cachers with the Mob to claim puzzle caches that they had not solved. The thread with that discussion is no longer viewable in the forum and comments can no longer be posted in the forum but it is available for download from the site.
We have 11 Micro Logic (ML) puzzles in the Ottawa/Gatineau area so we are affected by the situation. However we have never posted our opinion there.
We create our ML puzzles because we enjoy creating them and because there are a number of cachers who enjoy solving them and even compete to solve and find them. There also a number of cachers who do not solve them but go out with the solvers to claim them, or maybe get the coords from others. We have no problem with that, provided of course that they do not claim a FTF.
A situation has occurred in Ottawa regarding the logging of the ML caches that I find a little annoying. I decided to post something in a thread that relates to the difficulty level of puzzles. Here is what I posted.
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I have hidden 76 Micro Logic puzzles (ML).
I feel that for puzzles, the main attraction should be the solving so I usually put out a number of them at the same time in the same general area and I hide them in places that are obvious, uninteresting and easy to get at. For that reason the terrain is usually rated at less than 2.
Difficulty
The rating I choose is essentially how I judge that ML compared to other ML’s. I decide based on the logic I feel is needed to find the solution manually using logic, arithmetic and, trial and error. However the rating is sometimes difficult to decide since I created the puzzle and I know the tricks to finding the solution. I try to be as accurate as possible because here in New Brunswick there are a few cachers who take pride in solving them, especially the more difficult ones. I rate them 3 or more.
Who claims them
When a group of Moncton area ML puzzles come out, there is usually a competition to solve them and find them. A number of Saint John cachers often rush to Moncton to get them. We also have some ML caches in Saint John. They were hidden by a caching team there, who have given me the coords to create the caches. Because of this interest, I try to make the diffulty as accurate as possible.
I know there are a number of cachers who do not solve the puzzle but still log them. I will not change the rating because of that. As far as I know, these cachers admit it in their logs and none claim a FTF. I have not and will not delete the logs for these cacheers. They are usually out caching with friends and in my mind, that is one of the great things about geocaching
* One cacher works on them at the office with a non caching friend.
* A Saint John cacher solves them for himself and his geocaching father-in-law
* A Moncton cacher who does not solve them is employed at the same place as two other cachers and he keeps tabs on their solving progress and then goes out with the first one to solve them.
*Some cachers in NB and in the Ottawa/Gatineau area, team up with a parner or partners to go get them.
* There at least two cachers in the Ottawa area who have written programs to solve them. I guess technically that they have solved the puzzle. In fact I know that one of them feels that way because he he is against cachers logging puzzle caches that they have not solved. He has indicated that he can get the answer within minutes of the cache coming out. I will not be changing the ratings or deleting logs because of this. However his negative comments about the caches may push me not to hide more in the area. And that will definitely happens if he shares his program with others.
Just to make it clear.
I have no problem with everyone claiming the puzzle caches. We have claimed puzzles that we have not solved and have brought others to puzzles that they did not solve.
I was just annoyed by some of the comments and actions by an Ottawa cacher.
What is trhe web address to the ottawa site.
Just to let you know I love you ML puzzles.
I could write a VB program to solve them but I
like to solve them myself.
Keep up the good work.
Here is a bit more on this topic.
I put out logic puzzles in the Moncton area and received positive feedback. At the request of Saint John cachers I put out some puzzles there. On a couple of trips to Ottawa, I put out some puzzles in Gatineau. There was also some positive feedback. There are also cachers outside those areas who have solved the puzzles
All this was good for my ego because I have become addicted to creating the puzzles.
However, not everyone enjoys solving, not everyone wants to solve them, and some think puzzles have nothing to do with geocaching. Some cachers go out with friends to pick up those caches. I have no problem with that.
I received a bit of negative impact from the puzzles in the Gatineau area. One cacher posted a note on all 10 puzzles stating:”Don’t you think there are enough puzzle caches in Gatineau?”
Another cacher wrote a program in perl which allows him to get the answer as soon as the puzzle comes out. He got at least one FTF but in most logs he indicates that he was first to solve but couldnt be bothered to go for it right away. He also has criticized the difficulty levels. In fact his last log says all the above and he indicates that he can create a puzzle even more difficult. And he did. His negative comments continued in his new cache where he states: “We are submerged with “logical” caches. Unfortunately, my computer can solve them all in seconds, taking away any challenge…” Of course the obvious response would be: Don’t use the computer and it might be a challenge.
In any event, here is the puzzle cache he created. It is based on my micro logic puzzles but takes it a step or two further. So far there are 2 correct tries and 96 incorrect ones.
http://coord.info/GC2AZK6
And none of this is going to stop me putting out micro logics. If you do not like them, just ignore them or get a friend to solve it for you or write a program.
I would never insult a cacher for making a hard puzzle, I might state the fact that it seems too hard and that I am not going to try it, but to insult someone’s effort is wrong. Both Zor and vbpad have made hard and somewhat vague puzzles that do make sense after you know how to solve it but they are still hard and frustrating and made that way, I didn’t really solve each of them even though I came very close on each and I will whine and complain but I hope that I never let it get personal. On the flip side, if you do make a vague or very difficult puzzle you should be prepared for the fallout. There are some other difficult puzzle around and I am still ignoring.
PA I love the fact that you keep on putting out the micro logics even with all the crap you get from guys like me 😉
Well Rev, if they keep annoying you, I will keep putting them out. LOL
I was recently at an event and was talking to a puzzle hider and he told me that someone asked him if he was allowing me to log his puzzles if I didn’t solve them. As far as I know the rules are are find the cache and sign the log. The puzzle part is just something that enables you to find the coordinates yourself, there is nothing there, that I am aware of that says I have to solve it to log it, is there? Maybe I am wrong. If am with someone who has solved it am I allowed to log it as well? I think we all do that when out in a group. I know that most puzzle hiders put out the caches to be found by everyone not just the puzzle lovers but if someone else who can’t solve it finds it with another cacher they don’t mind because ultimately they want everyone to find the cache. If you don’t want people finding your cache without solving the puzzle please state that in your listing and I won’t ask or ever find it most likely. I want everyone to find my puzzles so ask me or someone who has found it already for the coords, I don’t care. What do you think?
If you stick to the official “rules” according to GSP, all that is required is for you to sign the log to log it as a find. Regardless of the “type” of cache, if you find the container, sign the log, it’s a find. How you determined the coords is not part of the official rules.
I would say that SOME cachers would feel you are not sticking to the spirit of the hide by not solving the puzzle yourself, but I think it vastly depends on the owner. I mean, if two people solve it together then does that mean only one of them gets to log a find? It seems kind of silly really. The fact of the matter is, puzzle caches have low find counts because most people don’t solve them. Hence, most hiders don’t care if their puzzle caches are found by folks who don’t solve the puzzles. They’d just assume have the caches found.
For mine, I don’t care how you obtain the coords, as long as you find the cache. To me, that’s what matters.
I have a couple of puzzles that are apparently quite tricky, but if someone wants to find them, I’m more than happy to provide the coords. I have found a lot of puzzle caches (over 350 and counting) and I’ve solved the majority of them, but not all. I certainly don’t lose sleep over either case. Sign the sheet, log the find.