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A Good Old Fashioned Throw Down

paulandstacey

While visting the gc.com forums recently for the first time in ages, I came across one of my favorite thread the “Found=Did Not Find” topic. While reading the most recent posts, I came across the term “throw down” and wasn’t quite sure what it meant. Reading back a few pages, I found out the meaning and figured I’d get peoples thoughts. I’m a little on the fence about it, but I am curious to see what you think.

A “throwdown” cache is one put out by a finder when they can’t find the cache they are looking for. This is actually something I’ve seen becoming more and more common. Now, sometimes people find a damaged cache and put out a replacement cache or log for people to sign until the cache owner can do maintenance. Other times, people know the cache owner or are with someone who has been there before and are certain the cache is missing. Still other times, there are people who can’t find it or are certain it’s missing and rather than log a dnf, sign a log sheet, throw it in a 35 mm container and log the find.

Ican understand the temptation of putting a cache somewhere when you are certain it is missing, but is that fair? Maybe it’s an unorthodox or very good hide. Maybe the owner removed it themself to do maintenance. Maybe it just isn’t your day. I feel replacing caches for derelict owners is bad for the game, and also people who regularly use “throwdowns” while not cheating, are certainly counting their numbers differently than I would. Is this just something that is now part of our constantly evolving games, or a reflection of the “it’s all about the numbers” mentality? Or something else all together? Hmmm…..

36 thoughts on “A Good Old Fashioned Throw Down”

  • I think the situations you mention are valid ones for putting a replacement cache but I would definitely mention it in the log so the cache owner is aware and can replace it with one of their own, if she so wishes.

    We carry a few repair items with us and will fix up minor problems with a cache. But we would not replace a cache. WELL maybe it is confession time.

    We did replace a cache once.

    We were doing a series of over 100 caches way out near Elgin. I think they were mostly micro caches, so we had our eye out for micros. In the middle of the day, we came to a spot where the gps zeroed out at a guard rail. We searched high and low on the guard rail and in all the nearby trees for maybe 20 minutes without any luck. We were certain it was missing and wanted to to do a good deed (LOL) so we placed a magnetic micro on the guard rail. At the end of the long day we were pleased with our 105 finds and went home to log our caches. At home we discovered that the cache in question was not a micro but a small cache and was on the ground. So the very next day, we drove all the way back to Elgin and found the cache and removed ours. BUT IT REALLY WASNT MY FAULT. IT WAS BELLADAN’S IDEA.

  • I have replaced caches that I found in disrepair, wet or completely broken but have never dropped a cache when I couldn’t find it. It also depends on the owner if I will replace or repair.

  • I never did, nor will I ever replace a cache because I cannot find it, and I certainly wouldn’t do it just for the smiley. I found caches that were such in poor shape and for which I was so upset about, that I just wrote a need maintenance and not even a smiley, even after finding the actual cache. So as you can see I am not just in this for the smileys, therefore putting me on the ‘’against throwndowns’’ side I guess.

    I did replace geocaches though. I replaced a few that FunkyNassau had left unattended and in desperate need of maintenance. I know that some think it’s just postponing the problem, and I can certainly see that, but that is another topic. Rev and I also changed a micro once when we found the cache in halves, and logged it as a find, but to me this is not putting a “throwndown”, as we did find the cache (or half a cache per the description). I also completely changed a cache Ma&Pa had in Irishtown Park where the container was ruined and needed to be changed. So to me major maintenance doesn’t equal throwndowns.

    These days I am no longer doing ‘’major’’ repairs unless it’s for a cacher that I know is active and does maintenance regularly (as I did for Ma&Pa), as I more and more lean on the ‘’just postponing the problem’’ side if it’s for a cacher that doesn’t cache anymore or is known to lack ‘’maintenance’’ etiquette. I no longer hesitate to take the trash out and report it as such (see Choo-Choo GC284PW)

    I have heard about the “throwndowns’’ getting more popular and I personally think it’s a pretty lame practice. It ends up being the owner’s job to either accept the change or the throwndown or to refuse it and perhaps delete the log. I dunno…

  • #’s, #’s and more #’s seem to be the name of the game. We had a cache replaced, it was a good hide with a clue that made you think. All the replacement did was made us drive to the cache location, remove the duplicate and then contact the cacher and tell him he missed it, it is/was there.
    On a recent cache repair run we fixed ours and a couple of caches belonging to others that had been noted to need maintenance. Emailed the owners and got what we expected, nada.
    Guess this makes me sound very grumpy, maybe I need another nap 🙂
    Replace, no, unless instructed to by owner, repair, I’m with Rev. depends on owner. If they don’t care why should I? nap time….

  • Throwdown… makes me think of gauntlets… anyway….

    I have never left a container somewhere because I thought the cache was gone and that I was somehow doing the owner a favor.

    I have replaced logs, repaired containers, and logged me a plenty of DNFs. Just because you can’t find a cache, doesn’t mean it’s not there, and that to me does not mean you hide a new one and call it a find. You didn’t find anything. You found nothing and are claiming you found something.

    Those who do this kind of thing, well, that’s up to them. I don’t agree with it and I don’t think it’s necessary, but part of the big numbers game makes folks want to cut corners to get an extra smiley.

    Ironically, if I got a log on one of my caches and someone did a throwdown on it, I’d likely leave the log. It’s not worth my time to chase after people who log for their own reasons. It’s actually VERY rare that I delete logs and usually when I do, I have a very specific reason behind it.

    • I apologize if I am taking this topic in another direction but I think it is related as it is cutting corners for a smiley. Geocachers will stop at nothing and maybe it’s because some people enforce if the log are signed. Anyways here is a cache where some one cut a hole in a deer fence to find a cache of mine… http://coord.info/GC29X1J

  • I got a log on one of mine the other day stating they found 2 containers, I went out right away to remove the impostor but I couldn’t find it, only saw mine.

  • “…and also people who regularly use “throwdowns” while not cheating, are certainly counting their numbers differently than I would.”

    How is this NOT cheating?? If you can’t find it, you can’t find it. That makes it a DNF. If someone is with you that has found it before it makes it “muggled” or “migrated” and considered “not in play”. It’s still not a find.

    In cases where the cache is there but ruined, damaged, etc then it would be considered a find and a repair (whether the owner appreciates it or not).

    Having said that, we’ve always played the game our way and let everyone else play it theirs, both with our finds or our hides. I’m not going to waste my time to police my caches or check logbooks versus online logs. I may not agree with how you play but I’ve got more important things to do and more caches to find then to worry about how someone else plays the game. The only log I’ve ever deleted was when a new young cacher logged a find twice on one of our caches. I emailed him and explained what I had done and why, more to teach him how to log finds than being upset at the duplicate log.

    In the case of a “throwdown” I would be tempted to delete the log but probably wouldn’t without at least verifying the cache is actually there. Even then I don’t know if I would delete it. It’s just a game and not worth any bad feelings or email war it could create.

  • It isn’t cheating in the sense that while there are guidelines, the only person responsible for a cacher’s cache find, is the cacher themself. There are no penalties. By the same logic, arriving at a cache where a cacher is signing it and hands it to you also isn’t a “find”. There’s a big ol’ grey area – but it makes for great discussion!

  • Since Pa put it on me, I thought I better come to my own defence. I think urban micro’s or caches put out by inactive cachers deserve nothing more than a needs maintnance, a needs archive or at best/least be put on a watch list. In the case of a large series, like the Elgin series, when your on a roll, have found 60 caches before and all were hidden with the same level of dificulty, it makes one wonder that in the vastness of the wooded areas that perhaps a critter (not critter 431) has gotten to it and dragged it away. You have all found cache containers 20 or 30 meters from ground zero marred with animal bite marks. If I was the owner of a 100 cache series or the infamous Albert county X or a 60 cache puzzle series just outside of town, I would much more appreciate a throwdown to replace a missing cache than have to run out to Elgin every other day to perform maintnance. I think maintaing caches are the responsibility of the cache owner although I think maintaing large series of caches like the Elgin series or the Albert Count X is the responsibility of all geocachers. Don’t get me wrong. Don’t search for a cache for 2 minutes and throwdown a new one just to be able to move on but if you give it 20 minutes to a half an hour and you found all other caches in the series within 1 or 2 minute there is an obvious problem. I think the service to a fellow geocacher outweighs the frustrations of a throwdown. I guess this is what they refered to as the GREY zone.

  • LOL

    No need to come to your own defence Dan. It was my fault. I dont really believe in throwdowns (I guess we all have learned and adopted a new caching term) because it usually just one of the bad sides of the numbers game.

    The examples that some have given of acceptable reasons to replace a cache, relate more to helping the cach owner. In the situation I described, we genuinely believed the cache was missing for the reasons that Dan and I have mentioned. Because the series was far from town, we felt it would be helpful to the cache owner to replace it. We certainly intended to advise the owner but when we realized our mistake, guilt took over and I made the long trip back to the cache location the next day. I think I certainly learned my lesson.

    In any event, as Gwenn said, we all cache in our own way and I think most of us try to do it as best and as honestly as possible. Today I archived a Micro Logic puzzle cache. A cacher had solved the puzzle and reported that it was missing. When I archived it, I thought it was only fair to have him count it as a find. His response was negative. He only claims the caches he signs.

    BTW Paul I am glad you started this thread.

  • I too don’t mind a DNF . I would never place a throw down.
    One other thing I don’t really like but allow ( if someone wants to log one of my caches without finding it go ahead )is when a cache finder asks to log a cache he hasn’t found but is sure it was missing an he was at the right spot.
    He then states logging with owners permission.
    I tried 4 times for a Wherigo cache in Fredericton vbpad cache.
    After the third DNF – he emailed me and told me to log it as a find.
    Said it was missing the each time I went for it. The two cachers before me were allowed to log it without a find but I said no.
    Went back a forth time and found the cache ( He had replaced it )
    I usually put a DNF cache on my watch list and if someone else finds it I
    will try for it again.
    There’s no shame in a DNF.

  • I am guilty of only one throwdown since I started caching one and a half years ago( a cache that shall remain nameless).I really didn’t know better at the time as I was new to this game but I learned my lesson quickly and corrected the error.This is something I will never repeat again.If I can’t find it I will watch the cache to see if anyone else finds it.Then I will know if it was gone or if it was just the fact that it was just me not seeing it.
    As for fixing other peoples caches alot of people do it.It’s just common courtesy.But when it comes to caches by owners who do not cache anymore it’s a different story for each cacher.If it is just a regular hide and not very old I have no problem removing it and logging a needs archive log.I have done this several times and did it just two days ago.I have fixed and replaced a few that have been around for a long time just because I felt they should be kept around and were better hides.
    As for the numbers game that someone mentioned,I do know usually how many I have in total,the number of puzzle finds,the number of FTF’s,etc.I don’t obsess over it like when I first started caching.I will not “cheat”(well not too much) to get my numbers up.If I wanted big numbers I would power cache constantly.But the stats and different geocaching icons are part of my geocaching collection.My hobby is geocaching and the finds,stats,icons,coins,etc. are what I collect.
    I know for me it’s not a total “numbers” game but the numbers are part of it.That and the really great places you find that you never knew were there or would have never seen or been to if it were not for geocaching.
    And really,tell me the name of one geocacher who doesn’t know how many caches they have found.

  • We came across possibly the worst throw down ever on this recent trip. An older couple from Nova Scotia found the wire and didn’t have a replacement cache, so they used a milk bottle from their car and put a business card in it. Awesomeness!

  • I was out with Coopsquared tonight finding some caches and we went to one of the sunfest caches and I noticed it in his hand and it wasn’t the same container as the original. I looked down and found the original at the base of the tree in plain sight. How hard did they look for it before replacing it with a pill bottle in a pill bottle, I guess they were in a rush. No mention in the log from the 4 of them about it? The first name on the log and type of container gave it away….lol

    • I don’t know if I showed it to you or not, but their team name was clearly written (prior to placing) in the box at the top of the log sheet for the FTF. So, not only a throw down, but claiming it as FTF in the log book, too, just to confuse things even further.

  • That’s just friggin’ terrible. And far to common from that lot. I can’t comment anymore on it as it just makes me shake my head….

  • I will say it again, it’s anyone’s game, but this example here to me is no longer geocaching. That has nothing to do with playing the game/sport/activity call it whatever you like. At that stage it’s no longer lame, it’s pathetic, and I’ll say it again, it is NOT geocaching!

    If it would happen to one of my caches, I would delete the logs. They DID NOT find your cache! I would write a note just after, not mentioning whose log I deleted, but I would say that I deleted logs because my cache was very obviously there, and that their own throw down cache is NOT the cache that was to be found.

    I am ok that some are out there for numbers, but this here is just something else. This type of caching should not be accepted amongst the caching community. What if one puts out a very nice cache insanely difficult to find, and that cachers like that put a random pill bottle at the site? It just ruins the fun for the others that come right after. If more would delete logs in situation like that, then there would not be any reason for those cachers to continue and it might put an end to it, or at least discourage that approach a bit.

    Just crazy.

  • In line with what Nemodidi said, did you delete their found log? Simply put, you can prove they did not find the cache, didn’t even look that hard for it, and certainly did not sign the log. That is the simplest rule, the one by which all finds are ruled as finds by groundspeak: sign the log, proving you found it.

    • I do not own the cache to delete the log, it is an ACGA cache that I maintain. Personally I don’t think it is worth the trouble to delete someones log, it can create more hassle than you want.

  • To me, the only time a “throwdown” is appropriate is if you find remnants of the original container and you KNOW it is the original container and you replace it with a new one. I’ve seen this done on occasion and am fine with that. But the whole let’s put a new container because we’re too lazy to actually look for the original is just plain wrong.

    • I disagree with you on that point Zor…
      I think its up to the cache owner to make the replacement unless you have spoken to them and said that you could replace it for them. Think about some of the cache owners that are no longer active, I would hate to see a new cache put in that place where it will not be maintained in the future. Might as well report it and get it archived and then let someone else take that spot. An example is cache GCT8CM, as it has a great deal of history and the CO doesn’t seem to want to maintain it.

  • I am with ZOR on this. We have a series that is really out in the wilderness and takes us a long time to plan and do maintenance. People love the series so there is no way we want to archive it. When K57 and others did the series, they did a maintenance on a few problem caches (log sheets, hooks, etc). One of the caches obviously needed replacing so we were pleased when TRH&SG replaced it for us.

    http://coord.info/GCT4DT

    • I guess the difference is that you are an active cacher and people know that. I would agree with maintenance on remote caches with COs that are active as they would likely appreciate it as you did.
      There are many other caches out there that are not properly maintained and the cache owner is not active anymore, so its frustrating to see these caches live on knowing that the issues will continue in the future.

      • What I should add to that is that I probably would not replace a container on a cache if I didn’t either know the CO personally, or at least be aware of who they are. I probably would not put in a new container if I was caching in a region where I knew no one.

        For locals, if I know they would appreciate the help in maintaining their caches, I do my part. But if I don’t know them, it’s a little different. I’d add new logs on any cache regardless of who the owner is, but not so much with replacing the cache.

  • Twice now I have run into problems or wasted my time because “Team Spud” is replacing caches that are part of a puzzle series. Once it was my own cache for the Town of Riverview that had a code word on the lid and the throw down did not. They didn’t even mention it in the log so I had no idea that part of the puzzle was missing until I went down to do maintenance and found my cache in plain sight three feet away. Now today I found out they replaced a #1Scout cache which had been missing for a year and should have been archived due to the fact that he does not do ANY maintenance anymore. The original was under a bridge which according to the listing had a clue and special cards in it for the big series, that he still has listed in the remaining 1/2 of the caches out there. Don’t get me started on that series, it has not been findable since I started in 2007! The throwdown apparently is now in a tree but because I was with Zonker who found it before and I knew from looking for it before was under a bridge so that is where I looked.

    This is why throwdowns are not always the best option!!

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