TB and Geocoin Hotels Etiquette
As much as I enjoy finding a geocache, I also enjoy finding trackables in caches and seeing where they have been AND moving them along to complete their missions.
I only have a few Travel Bugs out there in the wild, but I am getting some enjoyment of watching them bounce from cache to cache and virtually travel with them along the way. But I want my TBs to move not spend way too much time sitting in a cache.
So this leads me to the Travel Bug and Geocoin Hotels.
I understand that the Cache owners want TBs and coins in their caches to attract cachers and to help move along trackables, but as a TB owner, I want my trackables to move to “see” the world.
This past weekend, I found two Hotels and took all of the trackables to move them along. (Some of the trackables have been sitting there for a couple of months.) This is my common practice.
I realize that this may upset some COs and some other cachers as they want to be able to move and discover trackables as well but I usually don’t revisit a cache once I have found it, so I assume that is the norm and if its been out for a while it may not get found as often and therefore the TBs sit waiting in the hotel.
How do you handle TB and geocoin hotels ?
In our mind the trackables (TB’s)want to travel so we like to help out. When we travel we take all the trackables with us that we find and drop them off in caches at our destination. We pick up all the trackables we see during our travels and bring them home with us. All the trackables that we bring home, get a visit to our Lobster cache for mileage and to entertain the TB owner. So far 466 trackables have visited that cache, even though there is no room for a trackable in the cache.
We took about 40 TB’s with us to California and brought about 40 back with us. We took a bunch with us when we went to Virginia and picked up more in Quebec and Ontario on the way. We also picked up more in the US as we drove down. At one point during the trip we had over 50 with us and dropped them in groups in caches during the trip. We picked up a few down in the US and brought them home with us. We often have WI-FI during our trips and we can check where the TB’s want to go and we try and help them.
Now to answer your question!! We take all the trackables out of all the caches we visit, even the Hotels that may have rules about taking only as many as you leave. Some of the CO’s state that the rule is to ensure that there are trackables for the next person who wants to come and take some. This may be OK for Hotels on major highways and at airports, but in our experience most Hotels do not get visited much after the local cachers have logged it. So trackables often spend a lot of time in the older hotels.
Bottom line to us is that trackables want to travel so we grab them all and move them. If a cache owner owns a Hotel it should be part of their responsibility to watch over that cache and move the TB’s that have been there a long time. On the same subject, I do not understand the new trend that sees cachers discovering trackables that they see in a cache but not taking it with them. To me this goes against what caching is all about. Caching works because people are doing things for others, for example, preparing caches, helping maintenance, holding events, moving trackables, etc.
I also agree, take them and move them, the hotel owner does not own them and cannot make a “rule” to control the actions of a traveler that is not theirs.
I typically take all the TB’s I see as I don’t like taking the chance that they may sit there for weeks if not months before it gets visited again for someone else or risking them getting muggled. Although if it is a newer cache then I will leave the odd one for someone else as the visits may be more frequent. When I went to Ireland I took 20 with me and brought back about the same and it worked out going to an event as I was able to pass them to another cacher which to me works well being in a foreign place knowing they will move them in a safer cache option. I think the TB’s and Coins are one of the coolest aspects to Geocaching and I enjoy reading the stories and travels of them.
If anyone has any that they wish to travel to Germany/Austria or Europe in general let me know and we will arrange pick up. I’ll be heading over in Sept and will be dropping most of with a local cacher there. Or if you have any that you wish to just visit WWII sites, Oktoberfest or mountains I can do that for you as well as we will be taking in several of each.
I also believe that the TB’s should be moved and not sit there hoping someone will pick them up.
I grab (within reason) whatever I think I will move in the near future; meaning that if I know I have a cache run coming up, I’ll load up. If I am relegated to finding one here and there, I’ll limit my supply.
Let’s face it, all CO wish their caches would be visited on a regular basis, but that doesn’t happen, so move ’em I say!
I also belive TBS should be moved not sat there. Since I do not go on caching runs every week I do not take a lot of them.
A related incident today.
Got an email today from a cacher in QC. He apologized that his TB Hotel was empty when we visited it last month. He said that there had been 25 or more trackables in it in early May and that they were still there on May 25 but that not long after there were none left in it. He thought it was disgusting for that to happen. He likes for there to be TB’s in his cache because even if he doesnt take them, he likes to discover them.
I naturally figured that someone had stolen the 25 TB’s so I went to check out the cache. There were no trackables showing on the cache page. It was clear that he was upset because cachers had taken the trackables without mentioning it in their logs. Why did the cachers do that. Well maybe they didnt want to upset the cache owner who states the following on his cache page:
FOR EXCHANGE of TRAVEL BUGs and GEOCOINS.
You can take ONE TB OR ONE GEOCOIN without exchange if you are sure to move it in the right direction… Thanks.
I looked closer at the cache page and his profile and at the list of past trackables that had been in the TB Hotel and I found the following.
*One cacher had taken more than one TB in mid May but returned them and apologized for breaking the rules
*The CO has logged over 4000 trackables. Likely he enjoys the high numbers so he discovers all the TB’s in his caches.
*It took a while to review all the 500 trackables that had been in that cache, but I discovered that I had taken at least 11 of the TB’s that were in that cache.
Got another email from the owner of the TB Hotel. He did a bit of digging and discovered that we had taken 15 TB’s (of the 25 in there).
He was not happy. He said he put his rules in large bold coloured letters and I had no excuse for taking that many. He said that if everyone acted like us, the hobby would havw died a long time ago. He closes by saying that he hopes in the future that we will be more responsible and respectful of the basic rules in geocaching as well as those in society in general.
My reply stated my philosophy about trackables and I gave examples of all the TBs that we helped travel during our many trips. I mentioned that he had put 25 TB’s in his cache and wanted people to only take one. On that basis, some of those TB’ would never leave.
I closed by saying that we would not change our approach with regard to Trackables. I suggessted that he get the opinion of other cachers
A pretty nasty email from the sounds it. A person like that is more of a detriment to the sport than you could ever be PA. Good on you.
Crap. I missed and clicked the thumbs down by mistake.
That owner sounds like he’s missing the point. And also, perhaps he never heard that additional logging requirements are bad too, he’s doing essentially the same thing but on trackables.
Rev posted the video link that shows the rules. Plain and simple. Just like everyone thought, trackables need to move. ALL of them.
Cache owner should not have doubted PA.
PA knows best 😉
http://youtu.be/nN9jdgM8BDU
For those who can read French hereis the exchange of emails with the QC cacher. BTW I checked the trackable history and noted that some of the TB’s had been there at least 2 months and 6 cachers had showed up at the cache just to discover them. They did not log the cache since they had already found it. Seems to defeat the purpose of trackables and seems a little egotistical.
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FYI Here is the content of the last email and my response
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Comme c’est mon seul TB Hôtel, j’essaie de le garder bien approvisionné pour le plaisir de ceux et celles qui le découvriront.
Vous avez pris de ce TB Hôtel, 15 “Trackables”, sans en faire aucune mention ni en laisser un seul en échange! Avec plus de 12000 caches à votre actif, vous devriez, à ce jours, savoir comment fonctionne un TB Hôtel!!! Si vous ne le savez pas encore, il suffit de lire la description, pour laquelle je me suis donné la peine de mettre des caractères gras, couleurs etc. Donc aucune excuse pour agir de la manière dont vous l’avez fait. Je conviens que ce n’est qu’un jeux, mais si tous les géocacheurs se comportaient comme vous, il y a longtemps que cette belle activité serait tombée à l’eau!
Si vous lisez les “logs” de ceux qui sont passés après vous, vous constaterez que découvrir un TB Hôtel vide, ce qui m’arrive souvent, ce n’est pas intéressant du tout!
Je vous quitte sur ce, espérant qu’à l’avenir vous soyez un peu plus responsables et respectueux des règles élémentaires à suivre en geocaching comme dans toute activité de société.
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My response
Salut
Les TBs (et geocoins) appartiennent à des cacheurs qui veulent les voir voyager. Ils aiment que leurs TB aitent des kilomètres et visitent le monde. Alors pendant nos nombreux voyages nous prenons tout ceux que nous pouvons et les faisons voyager. En avril nous en avons amené 40 en California et en avons ramené 40. L’année précédant nous en avons apporter plus de 50 en California et ramené autant. Nous avons fait des voyages en Grande Bretagne et Irelande et fait la même chose. Nous faisons souvent des voyages de caching à PEI, et NS et QC et aidons les TBs à voyager. Nous avons fait la même chose pendant des voyages le long de la I-95 au USA et en Floride. Les cacheurs apprécient nos efforts.
Au mois de juin nous étions en route pour Virginia en passant par Gatineau. Nous avons partis de la maison avec une trentaine de TB. Nous avons fait du caching pour 7 jours en chemin pour Gatineau et avons ramassé des TB au NB et au QC. Nous avions des TB qui voulaient aller au QC et en ON et nous les avons mis dans des caches appropriées. Nous avons apporté le reste au USA. Nous avons fait du caching pendant 5 jours en se rendant à Virginia et avons déposé et ramassé un nombre de TB. Encore nous avons essayé de les mettre dans des caches qui satisfaisaient les désir des propriétaires des TBs. À un certain moment nous en avions 52. Nous avons passé 10 jours en Virginia, faisant des randonnées `d’environ 12 miles par jours dans les montagnes. Pendant ce temps nous avons réussi à déposer tous les TB que nous avons ramassé au Canada et la plupart de ceux ramassé au USA. Nous avons ramené un petit nombre avec nous au NB.
Les TBs n’appartiennent pas au propriétaire de la cache et ces propriétaires ne devraient pas mettre des restrictions qui empêchent les TBs de voyager. Dans notre expérience, il y a trop de TB Hotel où les TB restent trop longtemps car ils n’ont pas assez de visiteurs. Nous avons déjà possédé un TB Hotel. J’allais souvent la visiter pour enlever des TB.
Vous indiquez qu’il y avait 25 TB dans votre cache. Si les gens obéissent à vos instructions et prennent seulement un TB, il y a des TBs qui sortiront jamais de la cache.
Nous allons continuer à agir de la même manière. Je vous suggère de demander l’avis de d’autres cacheurs.
PAul
I read French way better than I can speak it. Well done on the response, especially with respect to the email you responded to.
Found this posting by XIRA on the Ottawa forum.
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Two interesting posts were recently posted on a local TB hotel that has rules about how many you can take. One was by Fee&Me giving some links to Groundspeak’s position on TBs, the other was by the owner of a trackable that was then in the cache. Both postings basically said that the CO cannot make rules about TBs movements through a hotel, and both have been deleted. I’m going to take the liberty of posting the links that Fee&Me provided.
http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=142059&#entry2422784
http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=272897&#entry4690169
http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=94185
I had visited that TB hotel prior to reading this. I respected the CO’s request. If I were to go back now, I would unhesitatingly take all the TBs.
I should also mention that I don’t have a GPS capable of paperless caching so I don’t have access to the descriptions if the cache pages so would not know the COs wishes anyways
The point was made that nobody cares about the cache owners wishes anyway.
Oh Tetagoucher, the cache owner can’t make up his own rules for a cache if he wants to list it on GC.com. You can ask but you have no right to force it. It is no different than me putting out a cache and say it can only be found on Mondays. Groundspeak has said you can’t control TBs in a hotel so it is over he is wrong and he can gripe about it all he wants. When you click on the two little boxes at the bottom of the page when submitting you agree to the terms and conditions that have been put in place by Groundspeak. The reviewers should not allow it to happen in the first place.
Just because the cache has the words “TB Hotel” does not mean it has different rules than any other cache with regards to Tbs. That restriction is not on any other caches regardless of the name or type. You can come up with whatever reasons you want to to start a debate but they will be irrelevant. You can state “What rules” but there are some and it is written in the forum and in the guidelines.
I have three caches where I ask people to play a trivia game in the logs, I cannot force people to play and I don’t say a word or send a nasty email to someone who doesn’t play along. Eventually someone will read the listing and is willing to play along, if they don’t I don’t whine and complain, I have no right to force anything on anyone except for them to find it and sign the log, end of story.
“The reviewers should not allow it to happen in the first place.” Herein lies the crux of the argument. If the cache owner is potentially interfering with the movement of trackables in and out of their cache for whatever reason, and contravening the established guidelines for trackables as established by Groundspeak, then Groundspeak should be dealing with it.
It is a slippery slope. We want to play the game according the established guidelines, as our own morals and ethics on gamemanship dictate, and not step on anyone’s toes in the process. It is not always possible.
Rev, the way you addressed Teta’s comment makes it impossible for anyone to believe they can have any type of constructive or meaningful debate on the topic. If Teta, Ze, or myself had addressed someone in the manner that you have, people would have been screaming for our heads on a pike.
Teta made a valid point.
My comments were on cache owners wishes and weather they were valid, they are my thoughts and opinions on his comment of this thread about people not caring.
I did make any personal remarks about his intent with his post as he has said things in the past to just stir the pot, ask him, he has told me so. I love discussing things on here and will continue to do so, he has every right to come back and tell me I am wrong. This is a place to discuss geocaching not individual agendas, that can be taken offline or to Facebook groups 😉
I agree with you Rev. I am ready to listen to all points of view and have a good discussion. However I think Forest Fauna is referring to one line in you post whcih can be interpreted in more than one way. The line is as follows:
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You can come up with whatever reasons you want to to start a debate but they will be irrelevant.
Yes, I see that now and with that line I was referring to the fact that you cannot defend the cache owners “rule” about the TBs not his (Teta’s) ability to rebut me, he can try. My apologies, I could have worded some things better as usual.
Teta’s remark could have been worded much differently if he intended to have a discussion. He could have said “How important is the cache owners wishes when it comes to rules that contravene the basic principals or guidelines for TBs?” That may have received more debate than the way he did it. I know that Teta is a rule follower and gets upset at people who don’t, he has said it many times. He fights for taking geotrash out of the woods and being responsible owners and I respect that part of his game very much.
So should a cache owners request have precedence over the official guidelines?
The words “rules” and “guidelines” have been thrown about a lot with respect to this topic. Show me where in the official guidelines it states that someone cannot restrict the movement of trackables into and out of a cache they are the owner of. I can’t find it.
http://support.groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.book&id=11
You are correct that there is no official rule in the guidelines . However a few days ago I posted 3 links to the geocaching forums to items posted by EARTHA who is Volunteer Groundspeak Travel Bug Forum Moderator She makes it quite clear that trackables are not trade items and you do not have to trade equally. In fact the third link is a thread by her which she titled HOW TO LOG A TRAVEL BUG OR GEOCOIN Instructions on logging. (Note: TBs are not trade items.)
In her three postings she often refers to hotels with trading rules as TB Prisons.
The rest below are quotes from her 3 posted items.
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And, as stated above, a TB is not a trade item, you do not have to put something in the cache to take a TB, and you should not take something from a cache in trade for a TB. if you should take something from a cache, place the TB and a trade item.
TB Hotels: A 1:1 rule is a cache rule on some caches, not a TB rule. Don’t let TB’s linger too long just because someone wants their cache stocked with other people’s TB’s. The TB’s do not belong to the cache owner. (Send them a link to this thread if they complain)
I will say this for the benefit of TB prison owners. Travel bugs belong to the Travel Bug owner. You cannot dictate that they must stay in a cache until a trade can be made. They are not yours to rule over. If a cacher wants to trade for a TB, take a TB and not leave one, or drop one off and not take one, that’s how the game is played. You cannot hold them hostage until someone comes along with another travel bug to get it out of jail. If your cache is well placed, unlikely to be muggled, and easy to get to on a cacher’s way through town, it will work regardless of rules. Your rules are unfair to all Travel Bug owners, and most travel bug owners would not want their travel bugs held prisoner in your cache. Any cache is a good cache for a travel bug.
You can tell the cache owner that Eartha, Groundspeak Volunteer said Trackables are not trade items. Cachers do not need to trade one for one. The goal of the Trackable item supercedes the wishes of the cache owner. Trackables are game pieces belonging to the trackable owner, not to the cache owner, so the cache owner cannot dictate their movement, or let them stall out and languish, waiting to be traded. Move them bugs! Take one, take two, take them all. Just don’t hold on to them too long.
Send the cache owner a link to this thread, and maybe they will read the forums and learn all about TB angst.
If you were a guest in a hotel, how would you like it if the manager said you couldn’t leave until another guest showed up to take your place?
No prob it’s right here:
http://support.groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=148
“Keeping or selling a Trackable which doesn’t belong to you is frowned upon, unless you have received express permission from its owner.”
ALSO:
The guideline’s right in this video: http://youtu.be/nN9jdgM8BDU
from geocaching.com.
@ 13 secs:
“you don’t have to leave anything in it’s place as long as you are willing to help it on it’s journey”
Sorry evulc, but in my mind, neither of those links answers my question.
I do agree with TBs not being trade items and not being restricted by the rule of “take one, leave one”. Trackables are owned by those who bought them. They are meant to move along as dictated by the goals or desires of the owner. That is clear in the guidelines.
PA, I read the forum posts you linked to previously. Again, those would merely be the opinions of the forum moderator, Eartha. Although in this case they are an “official” Groundspeak, Inc. volunteer, their opinion on TB etiquette is not in the official guidelines anywhere.
My point is this: There is nothing that says the TB Hotel owner cannot post a “take one only” rule on his cache. By the same token, there is no way the cache owner can enforce his rule. It is up to us to decided whether we want to respect the cache owner’s wishes or not.
They don’t write the rules/guidelines in the negative direction.
You’ll also notice there’s no written rule that says ‘dont throw out geocache prisons, they’re garbage.’
But people still leave them alone.
Don’t throw them out even tho they are garbage. Is how that should read
Some will respect those kinds of requests but the way I see it is that the TBs are meant to move and I will move them. Grabbed 2 more again yesterday and putting miles on them !!
evulc says:
July 30, 2012 at 10:51 am
“They don’t write the rules/guidelines in the negative direction.”
I refer to this in rebuttal to your statement:
http://support.groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=304
that all reads fairly positive to me.
the fact remains, and the video states clearly that you dont need to trade TB’s, just move them. anything else is against that specifically.
and since they aren’t also going to make a video that states the opposite stance:
“you can’t make geocaches that restrict the movement of the affore-mentioned moving trackables.”
we can all go back to what i said in the first place,
PA knows best.
There are a lot of “nos” and “nots” for that thread be considered positive, but that is your interpretation, not mine.
Videos, forum posts, words from volunteers, etc. are not “rules”, nor are they “guidelines”.
I will play my game as my conscience, morals, and ethics dictate, in fairness and with respect to any other cacher, and in accordance with the established “guidelines” of geocaching as written by Groundspeak, Inc.
i cannot see how this video:
“Geocaching.com Presents: Finding a Trackable – What to do?” which is published on the official Geocaching.com channel on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/user/GoGeocaching by the staff of geocaching.com
might not be considered an official interpretation of their own guidelines and rules about trackables.
*shakes head*
i guess since it doesn’t fit the exact document you seem to require entitled ‘why forestfauna is incorrect about trackables’ by the inventors of geocaching themselves the video and it’s information must not be valid, correct, or official.
sorry, but in my opinion at this point you’re just being contrary about this subject, nevermind incorrect.
I find that you are now being extremely rude.
‘why forestfauna is incorrect about trackables’
“sorry, but in my opinion at this point you’re just being contrary about this subject, nevermind incorrect.”
It is this type of behaviour that makes it very difficult for people to participate in forum discussions and actually have an opinion.
I never insulted you or said your opinion was incorrect. If you look back through the thread, I haven’t even given my opinion on the subject of TB Hotel restrictions, one way or the other. I was simply offering additional information and another side to the debate. Insulting me is just making you look bad at this point because you can’t come up with a decent response. Hey look, I made an opinion!
pointing out that someone is being contrary or telling them they are incorrect is not insulting them, though i have a feeling you’ll disagree 😉
you seem like a fine chap, and a fine geocacher as well. fair and tempered even.
i am merely suggesting you might be missing the clearly stated guidelines in that very well produced and no doubt VERY expensive video explaining the matter for us all.
cache on forestfauna.
enjoy the game.
I watched the video evulc. It is a “how to” on what to do when finding a TB for the first-time cacher.
1. Does it say a cache owner can restrict the movement of TBs? No.
2. Does it say they can’t? No
3. Does it say that a cache owner can request a “take one only” rule for the cache he owns? No
4. Does it say that they can’t? No.
That is the point I have been trying to make all along. There is nothing that says the TB Hotel owner cannot post a “take one only” rule on his cache. By the same token, there is no way the cache owner can enforce his rule. It is up to us to decided whether we want to respect the cache owner’s wishes or not.
“i am merely suggesting you might be missing the clearly stated guidelines in that very well produced and no doubt VERY expensive video explaining the matter for us all.”
I believe my interpretation of the guidelines is quite sound, thank you very much. And the fact that Groundspeak, Inc., produced a video, no matter how expensive, doesn’t change my interpretation. It is the same whether I look at the video or the official guidelines in the forums.
For the record, you never “suggested” anything. You stated that I was being “contrary and incorrect”. If you want to go that route, I would say that it is YOU who are incorrect in your interpretation of the Groundspeak, Inc. guidelines concerning trackables. I originally asked for someone to “Show me where in the official guidelines it states that someone cannot restrict the movement of trackables into and out of a cache they are the owner of.” You kept pointing me to the forums (which I’ve read) and the video (which I’ve watched) and it states nothing concerning trackables and caches.
You wrote this in response:
““Keeping or selling a Trackable which doesn’t belong to you is frowned upon, unless you have received express permission from its owner.”
ALSO:
The guideline’s right in this video: http://youtu.be/nN9jdgM8BDU
from geocaching.com.
@ 13 secs:
“you don’t have to leave anything in it’s place as long as you are willing to help it on it’s journey”
No one said anything about keeping or selling a trackable. No one said anything about leaving something in it’s place. My comment was about RESTRICTING MOVEMENT INTO AND OUT OF A CACHE. No one is preventing the movement of a trackable; at worse, they are slowing its progress down a bit. No worse than someone pocketing a TB and forgetting about it in their bag for 2-3 months (it happens, trust me, I know).
If you believe I am incorrect, that is fine. That is your opinion. But don’t state it as fact.
you are factually incorrect no matter how nasty you try to make me look for saying so.
there are no special rules for geocache owners with respect to other people’s trackables as geocache owners are not special.
they don’t own them.
they must follow the same trackble rules as anyone else.
sorry you’re so frustrated.
No, evulc, I am not incorrect in my interpretation of the guidelines as set forth by Groundspeak, Inc, despite what you may believe. You have yet to prove anything I have stated as incorrect.
My frustration is solely based on the fact that logic, reason, and facts seem completely lost on you.
It seems you have not read anything I have written without a pre-determined bias.
Since you clearly cannot read anything I post the first time, I will copy and past exactly what I said previously:
“I do agree with TBs not being trade items and not being restricted by the rule of “take one, leave one”. Trackables are owned by those who bought them. They are meant to move along as dictated by the goals or desires of the owner. That is clear in the guidelines. ”
“There is nothing that says the TB Hotel owner cannot post a “take one only” rule on his cache. By the same token, there is no way the cache owner can enforce his rule. It is up to us to decided whether we want to respect the cache owner’s wishes or not.”
That, is FACT.
Found a TB today that was placed almost a year ago. Time to move it along !!!!
Interesting to see the debate going on here. Always interesting to see the varying points of view.
At the end of the day we will all interpret the guidelines and play this “game” the way we all see fit and all try and have as much enjoyment as we can otherwise we would go do something else. I move trackables and some may get upset by that. Sorry if it offends anyone but trackables want to move. My little guys are more interested in the toys in the caches that they trade for other than a TB that daddy won’t let them keep .
Geo, no need to apologize for how you play the game. My girls like it when they discover trackables or when I bring some home to show them. If you want to take all the trackables you come across, or none, it doesn’t affect me at all, and doesn’t impact my enjoyment of the game and how I play. We all play the same game, we just all play it a little differently. I think we all need to be reminded of that from time to time (myself included).
In all of my previous posts I never offered my own opinion on the entire topic. I guess now I will state what I actually feel concerning the issue. I probably wouldn’t clean a TB Hotel out, but I probably wouldn’t take just one, if I knew I could help move some along. I’d want to be respectful to the best of my ability to both the cache owner and the trackable owners. Even if the cache owner may be wrong, it is his cache, and I should try and respect his wishes if I can. We are all part of the same big community, after all.
If, according to the geocaching community and Groundspeak, Inc. volunteers, the desires of cache owners on TB Hotels are restrictive of the movement of trackables (which I believe is open to debate), then Groundspeak, Inc. should implement guidelines to prevent the inclusion of said rules or restrictions for caches.
I end with a statement that I’ve made previously:
“It is a slippery slope. We want to play the game according the established guidelines, as our own morals and ethics on gamemanship dictate, and not step on anyone’s toes in the process. It is not always possible.”
We came across a TB hotel in PEI in June and it was full of TBs that El Nimrod had placed in it. We each took about 4 and may have left one or two that we brought with us. We didn’t clean it out but came close, they were meant to be moved and PEI is not a TB friendly place with all the little pill bottles every where. There were no trading rules on that one but many complaints about it being 20 meters off and in the owners own driveway…lol
We have cached in many places and do not find PEI to be more or less TB friendly than any other place.
With regard to the pill bottles on the PEI, I have no problem with them. PEI cachers spent a lot of time and effort covering the Confederation Trail with about 1500 caches. Most of the ones we found were a little larger than micros. In order to ensure that the caches stayed dry and would need little maintenance, they went to the trouble of using double containers. The outside container was a little larger than a micro and contained a smaller container with a log sheet. The container was too small for a TB, and it took a little longer to get at the log sheet. However, I felt this set up was the best idea for this kind of series.
WE have done a large number of the CT caches on the west side of PEI and will be returning later this year to do the East. It is a great series and I am very grateful for their efforts
PA
I will raid caches with TB’s or Coins and move them along, I don’t read the mission statements until I log them typically from home. I did that on my trip last year to Ireland on my last day only to find I had one requested to travel Ireland only. Since I couldn’t get it in a cache before I left I actually had to email the owner and explain the situation and I do that for any other TB I come across. Many times we hurry to move along and we grab now and fix later but if I see I will be able to help it’s mission but maybe not for a few months I email the owner and request their opinion of choice. To me the TB owners get first request of option not the cache owner that has restrictions. I will only visit a cache once unless I end up back there with another cacher so I have no worries of having the owner upset I took too many TB’s.
Bottom line is TB Hotels unless they are premium member only have bad reputations for the most part as high risk for stolen items and I’d rather not risk mine or others TB’s risk ending up in the wrong hands. I can move it to another cacher/event/cache that will respect the s TB’s wishes. I understand where ForestFauna is coming from as the guideline just isn’t written in the terms and policies although it’s been suggested in other forms of communication
I have presented my feelings on the removal of TB’s from TB Hotels and I gave my reasoning and cited what i felt was strong suppor and supporting documentation.
It now seems that the discussion has turned into the question as to whether or not groundspeak guidelines (or rules) say that the a CO cannot restrict the movement of TB’s in and out of a cache.
Here is my view of this discussion.
*I provided quotes from EARTHA the TB moderator at groundspeak that clearly state that TB’s are not trading items and that CO’s cannot restrict their movement or dictate the number that can be put in or taken out of a cache. These many postings have been there a long time. Some of the threads have been locked by Eartha to stop further discussion and giving the impression that the final word has been given on the subject. Groundspeak must be clearly aware of these forum items from Eartha. However, as Forest Fauna has said, they do not seem to have come out and officially repeated that information in the rules and guidelines and knowledge book.
*Evulc has highlighted a number of items from groundspeak that seem to support my position on trackables, including a statement that TB’s are not trading items. The latter clearly leads to the conclusion that TB’s are not subject to the “take-one-leave-one” rule that applies to ordinary swag. However, Groundspeak again have not come out and stated an opinion in the guidelines.
*For the life of me, I cannot figure out why they have not come out and made a simple statement that says exactly what Eartha has said:
“Cachers do not need to trade one for one. The goal of the Trackable item supercedes the wishes of the cache owner. Trackables are game pieces belonging to the trackable owner, not to the cache owner, so the cache owner cannot dictate their movement, or let them stall out and languish, waiting to be traded. Move them bugs! Take one, take two, take them all. Just don’t hold on to them too long.“
I wish they would just come out and say it.
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A couple of additional points about TB Hotels
*An argument I have seen here and in other discussions is that putting a restriction on TB movement is an ALR and therefore that restriction is not allowed. I cannot agree with this. An Additional Logging Requirement is a situation where the CO wants finders to do something in addition to finding the cache before they can log a find. ALR’s do not apply in our situation, unless the cache owner deletes the logs of those who do not obey his rules.
*I started to wonder about the motivation for creating a TB Hotel. Let’s assume that there have never been any TB hotels and that cache owners have never said anything about TB’s in their cache pages. why would someone come up with the idea of a TB Hotel? It seems to me that someone would figuure that caches along a major highway or near an airport get visited by many outsiders and by locals leaving on trips. That would lead to the idea that it would be great to have caches specifically placed in those locations to help TB’s move. I cant fathom why someone would place such a cache in such an ideal location, and then put a rule in place that would restrict the movement of the TB’s. It doesnt make sense. I dont understand the motivation for creating such a cache with such a restriction.
*I think part of the problem is that GC.com now keeps track of the number of trackables that a cacher has grabbed and discovered. So in addtion to accumulating number of caches finds, some cachers are also now trying to accumulate a large number of trackable logs. This can be seen at large events when you see cachers wandering around the parking lot writing down TB numbers from vehicles or even taking photos of them. This can also be seen sometimes at events when a cacher shows up with a list of trackable numbers and hands them out to cachers who take them without even seeing the trackables. This can also be seen in some areas where cachers go to TB hotels on a regular basis to discover the TB’s.
Geo – My hotel was one that you raided the weekend in question. I agree that the trackables need to move, which is why I placed the hotel in the first place. I thought the location (highway 1 between Saint John and the US border) was a prime location to have the trackables move. I am glad that you took what you did. I would like to see more people drop off and retrieve trackables from this hotel and move them between the US and other parts of NB.
I was not offended that you raided it and took what you did. I hope (it being tourist season) more people stop and swap out trackables from this cache.
It is called a hotel for a reason – short visits – not longterm stays.
Interesting discussion on the topic, but there hasn’t been much said from the perspective of the cachers themselves.
Following all the debate, I agree with the opinion that the TB belongs to its owner and so his/her wishes supersedes those of the cache owner. Yes, the CO can request whatever s/he likes wrt to TB’s and I will take that into consideration when deciding on if/how many TBs to take, but no… s/he cannot make decrees about restricting movement.
That said, I rather disagree with the attitude that a single cacher should take all the TBs s/he finds in a cache. Being a relatively new cacher myself (started in Feb), I got a huge trip when I found my first geocoin. I see it as a courtesy to other cachers to leave TBs for them to find too. It just makes a cache find that much cooler!
It’s a little like pie: I COULD eat all of the pie, but SHOULD I eat all of the pie? Well, ok… maybe that’s a poor example as I regularly eat all the pie, but I digress. 😉